Interview with Dennis Shirley - The Golf Guy

WANTED ALIVE!

Do you know this man? If you don’t, you should!

Interview With Dennis Shirley the Golf Guy!


If you want to be at the "happening spot" at any golf-related show, you’ll be hanging around with Dennis Shirley. I can go on record and safely say that Dennis knows more people in the golf industry than anyone else. He is known as THE GOLF GUY. Just check out his website www.thegolfguy.biz and you will understand why. If you are anybody in the world of golf, you can bet that you will be in his 30,000+ contact list. And to get a call from him means something is happening!

I am honored to have Dennis Shirley as our first interview. How appropriate that we would have someone who knows something about every aspect of the industry and just about everyone who does business within it. And we are talking about a really nice guy. If he isn’t talking to you directly, then he is attached to his phone talking to someone else. There is always a big smile and a friendly hello from a guy who truly cares. Whoever said "nice guys finish last" obviously didn’t know Dennis (and certainly didn’t make his rolodex either).

GMA: You’re known as "the golf guy" -- tell me what you do. Your reputation is that you can solve any problem in the golf industry and, if you can’t, you know the person who can.

DS: Professionally, I help firms sell services that help grow golf industry businesses. I tell their story to the decision makers at the club management firms and private clubs in the U.S. My role is to make the cold calls and personal contacts to find business opportunities for my clients. I also develop their marketing plans and, based on my background, I serve on their team as a golf management resource.

Personally, I am the "dating king" of golf looking to make a match. I use my contact list of 30,000 plus to put people together that can help each other. I make the introduction and they either do business together or they don’t. Worst case scenario is that they have expanded their network of friends within the golf industry.

I help friends in the golf world find work. Everybody needs a job and I can help with this considering all of the people, businesses and companies that I deal with on a daily basis. A lot of people have lost their jobs at private clubs through no fault of their own. When that happens, they need someone who cares and I do care. I don’t charge for this and see it as my way to give back to the industry.

Additionally, I help industry leaders solve specific problems. I have been part of the team that built the TPC at Las Colinas and four other golf projects that are perceived to be top drawer. I am the librarian and started my database back in 1993. I know the people and the history of the industry people. For that reason, I either can serve as a sounding board to solve their problem or I can give them direct-dial phone numbers for someone who can help.

GMA: Exactly how does your business work?

DS: I have a very limited number of clients who retain my services. Initially I develop a golf marketing action plan that is very specific in what we need to do to give them higher visibility in the golf development business. Once we are in agreement, I pick up the phone and talk with applicable club industry people to find out where my clients can help. I provide my clients with an exclusive in their area of expertise. I don’t see my role as selling anything but I try and find people who need a specific service and I match them with the best possible firm to help solve their problems. I spend my day introducing my clients to people who will benefit from the services that they offer. I limit my clients to the best firms in the industry. I truly try and create win-win relationships for everyone. I have to feel very confident in the people I represent. Most of my new clients come from referrals of current or past clients or friends in the industry.

GMA: Is it strictly a pay for referral business or do you charge for some of your services and not for others?

My clients pay me a monthly retainer and a commission. I structure my scope of work as a draw against commission so that I am always perceived as an asset to their firm. The last thing I want to be is a line-item expense for the people that hire me.

I don’t charge people to help with their job search. The only thing I ask is that they always return my call once we find them a job. I don’t charge the smaller firms who call for my opinion or help in any way. If someone needs a phone number or has a question that relates to some specific concern, I answer it if I can or I tell them to call so and so.

GMA: Tell me a little about your background and experiences in the club industry. It looks like you came up through the Parks and Rec arena, then through the Sports/Fitness business, on to the golf industry through Four Seasons Resort and Club in Las Colinas.

DS: I have a Recreation and Physical Education Degree from Pittsburg State in Kansas. My first job out of college was with Johnson County Park and Recreation District in Kansas City. Probably the most fun five years that I ever had in my career. We were the first district to set fees for recreational programming and received the award as the Best Park and Recreation District in America the year I left. My peers from that era have gone on to be the leaders in their fields.

I decided I needed to make more money so I took a job as a regional sales manager for Nautilus Equipment. I oversaw their sales in 13 states. We were able to grow the firm and during our era the name became synonymous for exercise equipment.

I sold the Nautilus equipment to the Las Colinas Sport Club, the current Four Seasons Resort at Las Colinas, and they offered me an opportunity to come on the project as Assistant GM and Director of Sales. It was the first time that Golf and Fitness had been offered under one roof. We had 13 doctors on staff and were attempting to be a "Golfer’s Cooper’s Clinic." I learned a great deal in my time there. We had an annual membership and sold 1,200 memberships at $4,000 each. We also hosted the Byron Nelson golf tournament and I got the privilege of becoming good friends with Mr. Nelson and his wife, Peggy.

I was recruited by the Bass Brothers and built their family club in Fort Worth Texas. It was called the City Club of Fort Worth and combined fine dining with a complete fitness facility. We were early providers of fitness testing and personal fitness programs, and had a restaurant that provided healthful dining alternatives.

I was recruited by USAA insurance to return to the TPC at Las Colinas as General Manager. USAA was the initial investor in the project and had gotten it back from the Carpenter family during the down times in Texas during the middle 1980s. I was initially part of a team with Zack Neumeyer of Sage, Jack Cox of Colonial, Steve Barley, and others to develop a turnaround plan for the project. Once the plan was completed and approved, they asked me to implement the plan. It worked great. We changed the club from annual fees to membership initiation fees and monthly dues. It truly was amazing how the plan worked. The occupancy of the hotel went from 30+ percent to over 80 percent.

GMA: And where was your next stop?

DS: There was a problem as I was hired by USAA and paid by Four Seasons the management firm at the time. In short, I was never a Four Seasons hero and I left after 3 years. I was privileged to be recommended for a project in Georgia by Jay Morrish and Tom Weiskopf and became President of Harbor Club at Lake Oconee next to Reynolds Plantation. The project was never properly funded but thanks to Bud White and others we gave them a great golf course.

I headed back to Texas once the course was finished and joined D.A. Weibring and Byron Nelson as a partner in a firmed called Golf Resources. My role was to develop a golf management firm. We built the firm up to oversee 9 courses all over the U.S. In 1992, I had back surgery and decided that my kids were of an age that it was time that I was home more. Plus I could not travel extensively due to my back. I ended up hiring John Hungerford to be my assistant at Golf Resources and he ended up hiring me to take his place at Stonebriar Country Club in Frisco Texas. Too funny! Unfortunately CCA bought the club after my first year and I retired from day to day club management.

I decided it was time to go back into sales in late 1993 and have been working in the development of my network of friends in the industry ever since.


GMA: Your favorite famous quote?

DS: "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

GMA: I suspect you could be the author of that -- who was it?

DS: Teddy Roosevelt.

GMA: Within the industry, who do most admire and why?

DS: My hero was Byron Nelson. I will give you one example of what a gentleman Bryon was, but I have a million personal stories. When Bryon would go to a golf course, he would always ask who had the course record. If it was the local professional, Byron would never turn in a score that would beat the local hero. Byron Nelson not only talked the talk but walked the walk. I had the privilege of hosting numerous tournaments with him and being his partner for a period of time. No one in the history of our game has done more to elevate the game of golf than Byron.

GMA: Within the industry, who has been your mentor or the one person that has had the most influence upon you and why?

DS: Gary Haller at Johnson County Park and Recreation was my first mentor. He taught me how to do great work with no money. His management technique made it fun to work hard.

It was the most creative time in my career. Gary taught me how to be a leader and get the most out of a team. Gary’s glass was ALWAYS half full. He taught me to always see the positive and try and do the right thing. He also taught me to always try and catch people doing good work and compliment them for their efforts. Anyone can find fault and point out mistakes.

Joel Lavenson, my first boss at the TPC taught me how to "see it." I learned management by "walking around" and how to teach what I expected of my employees. Joel’s father wrote the famous "THINK STRAWBERRIES" article that taught our industry that everybody sells. Joel’s affect on me was that I must try and do anything I can for the members of my clubs. Some managers say NO to every request. It makes their life easier but does not properly serve the members. Joel taught me how important it is to try and resolve every member request in a positive way. He also taught me how to inspect what I expect so that my clubs were run consistently at a high level.

GMA: Greatest accomplishment or thing most you are most proud of doing?

DS: My greatest success during the time I operated private clubs was the future careers of the people I managed. The kids I worked with have gone on to be great managers with Troon, Disney, Four Seasons, and a number of the major hotel and club management firms. They are now the senior guys at their firms and doing great work.

GMA: If you could meet anyone in history, who would it be and why?

DS: I am one of the few people who got to meet a number of people on my list of historically famous people. I worked closely with Byron Nelson for years and hosted Mickey Mantle’s golf tournament and built a golf course with him at one time in my career. I would have loved to have spent quality time with Tim Russert. My political views are different than his but I think he will be remembered as the last honest journalist. I miss his approach to asking the hard questions and doing his best to find out the truth.

GMA: With the economy in a state of turmoil, unemployment at an all time high, and more homes in foreclosure than at any time in the history of our country, have you seen an impact on your particular business? I suspect you may be even busier now.

DS: I am busier now for a number of reasons. My phone rings more when people need help in finding business. In this economy I serve as the bear hunter for my clients while they focus on closing the business we have put into their pipelines. I have to work harder and be more creative in finding leads for them earlier on in the business cycle. I spend ten times more time in doing internet research to find new projects and keep up with reading about opportunities that exist for my clients. I have been blessed with the best clients in their individual areas of expertise. I am in conversation now with a firm that will fit into my focus of new clubs and clubs doing renovation work and that will fill my available time to properly serve my clients.

GMA: What areas in particular?

DS: There are fewer new projects and many of my clients are focusing a larger part of their work in the renovation of a clubhouse or golf course. Other clients are providing new outsourcing services that can save clubs money during these tough times. My time is now spent trying to help people solve problems at their clubs. The recent hurricanes have put a number of people in need of help.

There are a number of club managers who were let go because of the WCI and Ginn problems in Florida. I try and follow up on the guys who have been out of work for an extended period of time. It is easy to lose hope in this economy and people in our industry, like others, are hurting. My role is to keep my eyes open and make them aware when I see an opportunity that fits their background. 
 
GMA: Who’s your competition?

DS: My background, golf network and approach to growing a firm’s business are much different than anyone else in this industry. I don’t worry about competition because my approach is very unique and if I work hard I have a number of advantages that other people can’t duplicate. I do word-of-mouth marketing that is a different form of public relations. If I had a competitor, then it would probably be the PR firms. We are not in direct competition and often work together to help our clients. My two closest friends are Rich Katz of Buffalo Communications and Karen Moraghan of Hunter Public Relations. They are the best at what they do and are dear friends.

GMA: What are you hearing from them?

I know their businesses are doing GREAT. This economy has made managers of clubs go into what I call a "NEED TO DO" mode versus a "NICE TO DO" approach. What we do is definitely something they need.

GMA: Where are the toughest challenges today in the private, semi-private, and daily fee sectors and why?

DS: The problem in the industry is the time it takes to play our sport. People cannot find 4 to 5 hours away from their family and business in this era. We have to be creative in the building of new golf courses. The game of golf is built on tradition but the future golf course might consider golf courses that come back to the clubhouse every six holes. That would allow people to play 6 holes of golf after work or 12 holes or 18 holes based on their time restraints. It would also make us more competitive for the expendable dollars that people have to spend. This type of change would provide new increments of revenue for the operators. The other issue is being approached by Steve Mona in his new position at the World Golf Foundation. He is working to bring more golfers into the game.
 
GMA: What are the biggest challenges for clubs that you hear about most often?

DS: All of us are after the same base of golfers. We built way too many golf courses in the 1990s and the number of golfers per current golf course is declining. The good news is that the current growth of new golf courses versus the number of golf courses being turned into homes developments is pretty much equal today. The real estate problem will change this but today there is no growth in the total number of golf courses available to play. The biggest revenue challenge is how to get the most golfers on a golf course with everyone wanting to play during the same time frames. The biggest operating challenges are WATER and controlling the cost of maintaining a golf course.

GMA: What do you feel the solution is?

DS: I think proper scheduling of programming is very important in filling up the tee sheet. This would include family activities at certain times of the day, classes for beginners, twilight leagues. We have to control the use of the golf course, motivate people to play at varied times, and provide an opportunity to increase revenue.

I think fitness is a key to adding memberships to a private club. The addition of a fitness facility can expand family usage and provide a new source of revenue in the selling of expanded social memberships that include fitness.

GMA: What is the biggest marketing challenge for clubs that you hear about most often?

The major challenge today is the price/value/ratio that members expect when they join a private club. Are we giving members what they are paying for? It is hard to justify the expense of a private club experience when there are so many great high-end daily-fee golf courses available as an alternative. Your club has to be everything that the sales staff is selling during the initial presentation. The key to success is a happy membership.

GMA: What do you feel the solution is?

DS: The key is to do the right thing every day. If your hotel is clean and the staff is friendly, you have a great hotel. But a club is different in that the members consider it an extension of their home. A great club has to not only be clean and friendly but the staff has to be personally involved with the members and earn their TRUST.

GMA: What frustrates you most about this industry?  What can be done about it?

My pet peeve is member boards. I do not believe any club should have a board of directors after the first five years of existence. I believe that the first five years the board should help grow the membership and work to set the standards and traditions of the club. At the end of five years, I would suggest that every club go to a benevolent dictator form of government if they are member owned. Elect one member who is in charge and works with the club manager to run the club. I can’t tell you how many people get on a club board that are great business people and lose their minds and do things they would never do in their own firm. Their motivation to serve is not to do what is best for the club but merely for selfish reasons as they have their own agenda. It might be to get even with a club manager who told them "no" one time or to change a specific rule for their own self interest. The high turnover of club managers is directly related to our current structure of running a club through a club board. The GREAT clubs are run by one person who truly has the club’s best interest at heart.

GMA: Would you do away with the supporting member committees such as membership, greens, etc.?

DS: I would make them all volunteers with no authority. Let the professionals do their job and be held accountable for the success or failure of their individual departments.

GMA: Ever owned a golf course? Would you if given the chance?

DS: I have built four golf courses but never owned one. I have always worked for rich individuals that hired me to build and start up their golf course projects. If I were extremely wealthy and had an opportunity I would buy a golf course and run it for corporate outings only and retire.

GMA: What advice would you give to member-owned clubs?

DS: Enjoy the club and its facilities but stay out of the club politics. Play more GOLF!!
Hire a good CEO or management firm and let them do what they do BEST.

GMA: What advice would you give to golf management companies?

DS: The more you care about the members, the more they will use your facilities and the more money you will make. It is much easier and cheaper to keep a member than it is to find a new one.

GMA: What advice would you give to someone wanting to purchase their own golf course?

DS: Don’t do it unless it is for your personal enjoyment. There are easier ways to make money.

GMA: What other people would be an interesting, relevant to the industry interview and why?

This question is extremely hard for me to answer. I am blessed with so many friends in this industry and each one would be excellent. I think it would be better to give me a topic and I can tell you who the expert is in that arena. Some are the best at buying golf courses. Some are excellent at daily-fee management. Some are very good at making money in a private club. Some see the members as the enemy and some provide excellent customer service and both make money? There are too many great people in this industry to mention here.

You can bet your rolodex that I will be asking Dennis for his advice on interesting folks to interview. If you don’t know Dennis, it should be one of your top priorities. Just look and watch for the buzz at the next industry show or conference and you will find Dennis. Sign up for various offerings on his website and make sure that Dennis Shirley is on your contact list.